tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16959378.post112990436569706604..comments2023-10-16T04:58:53.689-04:00Comments on Verily Verily: The NT as 'Christian' texts?Rafaelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14471888340005683193noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16959378.post-1130941510113567222005-11-02T09:25:00.000-05:002005-11-02T09:25:00.000-05:00Thank you, Mowens, for the reference. I'll have to...Thank you, Mowens, for the reference. I'll have to track it down. In JESUS REMEMBERED Dunn makes some comments that link what we would call 'anti-Judaic' or '-Semitic' rhetoric to the procedures of (typical?) intra-Jewish polemics, if I remember correctly.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14471888340005683193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16959378.post-1130907260319940672005-11-01T23:54:00.000-05:002005-11-01T23:54:00.000-05:00R.R. writes:"While John does use 'the Jews' as a b...R.R. writes:<BR/>"While John does use 'the Jews' as a blanket label (and this negatively), it seems to me - and I could be wrong here, I know - that this label is more akin to labels such as 'Sons of Darkness', 'the unrighteous', and other sectarian/polemical labels. John, then, could be another example of a Jew[ish group] labelling another Jew[ish group] in harsh terms."<BR/><BR/>Are you aware of L.T. Johnson's article ("The New Testament's anti-Jewish slander and the conventions of ancient polemic," JBL 108 [1989]: 419-441.) on this issue?<BR/>His article seems like a helpful way of dealing with the issue. But, I'm not certain that it provides a full solution.Mark Owenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07145877997591508836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16959378.post-1130359783119994112005-10-26T16:49:00.000-04:002005-10-26T16:49:00.000-04:00We may look at it in these terms. If we look at th...We may look at it in these terms. If we look at the OT, then we see that the Jewish faith developed over time as their God did new things and as they faced new situations (e.g. the adoption of the <I>law</I>, the establishment of monarchy, the exile, the return). The coming of the Messiah was but another new thing to occur (albiet a highly significant one), so was the coming of the Spirit. All of these events were attached to the same God, and so belonged to the one faith as it developed through history.<BR/><BR/>What if the great majority of Jews believed that Jesus <I>was</I> the Messiah, would we speak of the parting of ways if all Jews continued the development in this way?.<BR/><BR/>I think it is when we define ancient religious movements in purely social terms that "Judaism" and "Christianity" get pulled apart. But even if we were to work along these lines, Christianity should be placed within Judaism in general as another variation alongside the essenes, and all the other various movements that we regualarly include within first-century Judaism.<BR/><BR/>No doubt the Israelites had a more variegated faith than is legitimated by the OT, and we see this variagation continue into the first century, where the Jesus movement becomes a part of it.Eddiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00236115781570052603noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16959378.post-1130338355500482362005-10-26T10:52:00.000-04:002005-10-26T10:52:00.000-04:00Richard: Thanks for this; I will check out your po...Richard: Thanks for this; I will check out your posts; I'm particularly interested in the 'finger of God' one.<BR/><BR/>Michael, thanks for the Meeks quote. I have to confess that, in light of the polemics in the Qumran texts as well as other 2nd-Temple Jewish texts, I suspect Meeks is onto something. But certainly I would want to qualify this by suggesting that the diversity of turn-of-the-era Judaisms could also eschew the sectarianism evident in John. Luke's portrayal of Gamaliel in Acts 5:34-39 suggests this as a possibility, even if Luke's account is rejected as unreliable.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14471888340005683193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16959378.post-1130203633515119142005-10-24T21:27:00.000-04:002005-10-24T21:27:00.000-04:00In the following articles on my blog I discussed v...In the following articles on my blog I discussed various aspects of the Jewishness of Luke-Acts. <BR/><BR/>Was the author of Luke-Acts Jewish?<BR/>http://kratistostheophilos.blogspot.com/2005/02/was-author-of-luke-acts-jewish.html<BR/>2-2-05<BR/><BR/>The Style and Technique of Luke-Acts<BR/>http://kratistostheophilos.blogspot.com/2005/01/style-and-technique-of-luke-acts.html<BR/>1-26-05<BR/><BR/>The Knowledge of Theophilus of the LXX<BR/>http://kratistostheophilos.blogspot.com/2005/01/knowledge-of-theophilus-of-lxx.html<BR/>1-20-05<BR/><BR/>The Finger of God<BR/>http://kratistostheophilos.blogspot.com/2005/01/finger-of-god.html<BR/>1-23-05<BR/><BR/>First to the Jews, then to the Gentiles<BR/>http://kratistostheophilos.blogspot.com/2005/09/first-to-jews-then-to-gentiles.html<BR/>9-20-05<BR/><BR/>During the 4th Watch<BR/>http://kratistostheophilos.blogspot.com/2005/08/during-fourth-watch.html<BR/>8-8-05<BR/><BR/>Zenon and the wicked tenants<BR/>http://kratistostheophilos.blogspot.com/2005/07/zenon-and-wicked-tenants.html<BR/>7-18-05<BR/><BR/>Pseudo-Philo and Luke<BR/>http://kratistostheophilos.blogspot.com/2005/04/pseudo-philo-and-luke.html<BR/>4-24-05<BR/><BR/>Richard H. AndersonRichard H. Andersonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245129849947063288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16959378.post-1130184462104866832005-10-24T16:07:00.000-04:002005-10-24T16:07:00.000-04:00I read somewhere (Wayne Meeks I think) something a...I read somewhere (Wayne Meeks I think) something along the lines of: when John appears to be unJewish in his criticism of other Jews, that is precisely the point in which he is being the most Jewish.Michael F. Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09713482855679578651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16959378.post-1130171549957341892005-10-24T12:32:00.000-04:002005-10-24T12:32:00.000-04:00Thanks, Eddie. I've read Judaism in the New Testam...Thanks, Eddie. I've read Judaism in the New Testament, but not for a while now. You're right: I'll have to check it out again.<BR/><BR/>James, I think you're right that identity is a difficult issue, and my thoughts are exactly along these lines. (E. Zerubavel's book, The Fine Line, was the original catalyst for my questions here; you might be interested in its analysis of how we make distinctions and the consequences.) I must confess I'm not sure what to do about John. While John does use 'the Jews' as a blanket label (and this negatively), it seems to me - and I could be wrong here, I know - that this label is more akin to labels such as 'Sons of Darkness', 'the unrighteous', and other sectarian/polemical labels. John, then, could be another example of a Jew[ish group] labelling another Jew[ish group] in harsh terms. What is interesting, then, is that the harsh term in question is 'the Jews', which suggests the Johannine author(s) would have rejected that identity for themselves.<BR/><BR/>But there are still a number of factors that suggest 'Jewishness' is a postively appraised aspect of John's social identity. Moses (and 'the Scriptures' in general) is incorporated as one of Jesus' witnesses at John 5.39-37. John the Baptist is similarly coopted; the Baptist's ministry was thoroughly Jewish, and despite being 'Christianised' it is still true that the link between John and Jesus suggest a recognition that the two (and their followers) come from similar/the same ethnic/religious/ cultural milieux. So John seems, implicitly at least, to recognise that Jesus and his followers represent a Jewish phenomenon EVEN AS he almost spits the words 'the Jews' out of his mouth. Do you agree, or am I way off base?<BR/><BR/>Let me ponder some about the Sabbath laws and the relationship between Jesus and God. I think you're probably right, but I hesitate to say so publically without giving it some contemplation!<BR/><BR/>[NB: Obviously, Christianity BECAME Christianity (= not Judaism), and John may represent an important step in (or indicator of) that process.]Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14471888340005683193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16959378.post-1130168687232579252005-10-24T11:44:00.000-04:002005-10-24T11:44:00.000-04:00It's an interesting question. undoubtedly identity...It's an interesting question. undoubtedly identity is always going to be a slippery issue and sometimes requires imposing a definition just to make sense of things (I got told off - pointlessly - once for repeatedly calling law observant Christians in the 30s 'Christians' but I think that's pedantic: it's a useful term to distinguish this group from other Jews like Pharisees etc. even if the boundaries were blurred but that's another story). Prophetic critique is one thing but then what do you do about something like John 5 where there are 'the Jews', Jesus advocating breaking of biblical Sabbath laws, and Jews being amazed about Jesus making himself equal with God. What would you do with something like that?James Crossleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10661575117163837659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16959378.post-1130120145681795092005-10-23T22:15:00.000-04:002005-10-23T22:15:00.000-04:00You might want to check out Judaism in the New Tes...You might want to check out Judaism in the New Testament: Practices and Beliefs by Neusner and Chilton.Eddiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00236115781570052603noreply@blogger.com